Aug 26, 2022
Bill Fairman
00:00:02
Are continuing doing our of wall street versus real real estate. And we got a great
Bill Fairman
00:00:23
Greetings it's bill it's bill and it's Jonathan and we are our Carolina management. Welcome so much to the what show again, the real estate, the real estate investor show char money for real estate investors, investors, Carolina, capital management. Once again, we are private lenders for real, for real estate professional, no east. If you have a, our project, rather that if you'd like USD like us to take Carolina hard money.com.com, click apply. Now tab. If, if you are a passive investor looking for passive returns, click on the credited and credited investor tab, don't forget to like share some, share, subscribe the bell. And, and don't forget about Wendy's with Wendy. Wow. That's new graphics. I like this because, because they always keep us on our, secondly, we devotes 30 minutes of her time per person, each Wednesday day that anything real estate related, there's a, there's a there to get on her calendar. She's usually a couple of months in advance. So good book now. And I'll talk about the upend upend coming expo.
Bill Fairman
00:02:00
So it on the 20, the 25th, I believe no 23rd through the 25th, 5th of September. And the note speaker is Emett very cool. I've cool. I've got, got a chance before Emmett real estate entrepreneur after football. So he's got the really interesting story story. So you can get there. We have a code to get the percent off it's Fairman Fairman it will be over in the comment set comment section, from what I understand, stand our audio really freaking out. So out. So IMing on Chris really quick, because, because I don't have a better voice than, than the rest of rest of us. Yeah. He's not having, he's not having the technical days that we are having Chris miles with, with moneys. The what, what is your title? The anti, I think you're muted though. Let's let's let you,
Chris Miles
00:03:11
Am I anti anti Financianal advisor? Right?
Bill Fairman
00:03:13
Anti financial advisor. I, I don't know why I keep that, but, but welcome to the show went on again and I, I apologize for our audio.
Chris Miles
00:03:23
No problem. It's issues. It's kinda like it's kinda listening to Max's headroom. You know, if you remember him from the 1980s, like Matt Max's headroom, you know, it's kinda like that. So it's kinda cool actually.
Bill Fairman
00:03:34
Oh man. You back some not so fun memory, but I did love, ah, okay. So our theme this month been about being able to build able to build what in real, versus getting rich in the stock market, right?
Jonathan Davis
00:03:58
Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the premise is what, what builds more wealth than when we say wealth, generational wealth,
Bill Fairman
00:04:06
Cash flow,
Jonathan Davis
00:04:06
Cash flow, everything. I mean like, like when, before it was, was, you know, you know, risk, you know, like, like the risk mitigation side of it, like you thought of it, like, you can get rich really quick in the stock market, but you can also lose, lose who's really stock market and knowing how to play that at whereas real estate, it's more of a long, long marathon and you know, marathon's appropriate I guess, for Chris, but, but
Bill Fairman
00:04:37
Yeah, cuz he is running these marathons. All right, we're gonna stop and, and let you say something, but first of all, talk a bit about your story where you started and what you're doing and what you're doing now.
Chris Miles
00:04:49
Yeah. You know, I, I started not learning about money, right? I was, I was raised by great parents. You know, it taught me good values, but the one thing they really didn't know a lot about was money. And, and when it did come to money, it was usually about scarcity. Right. I remember sitting around the table and you know, although my dad would say, Hey, you can be anything you wanna be right. But then he would also say, we can't afford this. Or what do you think I am made of money, money doesn't grow on trees. You know? And then even hearing things about his work saying I'm gonna work until I'm dead. I mean like that, that was like his outlook on life. You know, it was like he was gonna die working now understand he was like the quintessential saver. He was like the perfect saver.
Chris Miles
00:05:31
In fact, he would be like, Dave, Ramsey's older brother. You know, that taught Dave everything. He knows cuz my dad was not just a big penny pincher. He saved everything. Although, you know, he did splurge every once in a while, but he pretty much was a big time saver paid off his house. Early. Very proud of that saved in his 401ks, did everything you're supposed to do. But again, he was always talking about money, being a scarce thing. And so like most kids, when they see their parents, they say I'm never gonna be, be like him. So as I became an adult after doing some college and everything, I decided to drop out, become an entrepreneur and I became a financial advisor. And so as a financial advisor started to learn the things, hoping that if I learned something different that I would be able to help give my dad some of his life back.
Chris Miles
00:06:15
Now the problem with this is that after several years I sit down with my dad at his, at his kitchen table. This time he's asking me for advice. He says, Chris, I'm 61 years old. I wanna retire. What do you got for me? What can we do here? And I look at everything he's debt free. He's saved in his 401ks. And I said, dad, here's the deal. If you decide to retire today, you have to die in five years because you're gonna run outta money. Luckily you got a little bit of social security so they can help push you along a little bit longer. But if you didn't have social security, you'd have to die five years after retiring. And he said, okay, well what do I do? I said, I don't know. You've done everything right? Everything that I was taught as a financial advisor you've been doing.
Chris Miles
00:07:03
And this really disturbed me because as I'm looking at this, I'm saying, wait a minute, he did everything right yet. He's still not financially free. And then I started looking at my own clients, even clients I inherited from decades of previous financial advisors, they were in the same boat. They weren't financially free. And then I started looking at the financial advisors around my office. Even the guys had been working there since the late 1970s. And they weren't financially free either unless they have commissions coming in. But without the commissions, just based on mutual fund investments, they wouldn't be financially free. And then I looked at my own life and realizing I was on the same exact path as my dad, even though I vowed never to do what he did, I was trying to be cheap. I was trying to save everything. Hopefully if I saved up a couple million dollars, by the time I was 40, I could live on a whopping $60,000 a year lifestyle, 5,000 a month, which I thought was amazing 20 years ago.
Chris Miles
00:07:53
That's not the case today. And, and I realized there was a big problem. And, and of course when the students ready to teach our peers, that's about the time that my, you know, my, that I started to meet guys like you, you know, guys in the alternative for real estate space, people that were doing things in, in the real estate game that were retiring in like their twenties and thirties financially independent. And so I started to learn from them, started doing some of those same things, learning. It was about cash flow, not about accumulation of money. And the next day I know I'm able to become financially independent myself when I was 28 years old. And you know, and since then I've been teaching people how to do that today. You know, as like the anti Financianal advisor, telling people to go away from the stock market now understand even in my background, I mean this not only was I pro stock market pro mutual fund, I was also pro stock trading because I was also by the time that I was right about the transition between becoming financial, independent and quitting as a financial advisor, kind of in that middle section right there, I also became a stock coach.
Chris Miles
00:08:54
I was teaching people how to trade stocks and options in the market. So they could be like George Soros, right? Or some people would claim Warren buffet, but Warren buffet doesn't trade stocks. You know, he buys companies it's different. And so I was teaching people how to do that stuff for a few years as well. So I trained about 200 people, just one on one, how to buy and sell stocks and options. And I'll tell you even being in that world, having been there, I can assure you that just like in the financial advisor world, although you have more hope if you do your own stock trading, the truth is that even the best traders in the stock market will not do much better than 20% a year. That's it now 20? Percent's nothing to, to shy at, right? But when you hear people out there saying, oh, I make hundreds of percent on my trades.
Chris Miles
00:09:42
Or there's even people that try to raise capital and funds saying, I'm doing options trading. I'll pay you 10% a month, which is bull crap. They can never do that. Every time that's happened. Every single time I've seen somebody get shut down by the S sec because they can never sustain it unless new money's coming in. Cause it's basically like a Ponzi scheme, right? So you hear all this kind of crap out there. But the truth is that George Soros himself has only done about a 24% average over time. That's why he's in his really about 90 years old. And he's a billionaire still not the top of the list. He's up there, but it took him 50, 60 years of this Warren buffet. Same thing. His average has been about 24, 20 5% buying companies buying interest in those companies and watching his portfolio grow.
Chris Miles
01:10:26
He's also nearing a hundred years old. And yet he's still about the richest guy in the world, right? So the truth is is that if you go with wall street, you're gonna have a much harder time of success because most people aren't investing like this. Most people are putting their money in mutual funds, which the S and P 500 for the last 30 years has only averaged. And I just updated it's about 7.7, 5%. That's without fees that's without taxes that's without anything going against it. Most people on mutual funds don't even get that high, cuz almost the vast majority of mutual funds never get the height of what the S and P 500 does. They usually do a lesser return. So think about that compared to a 401k fees, it's ridiculous.
Bill Fairman
01:11:11
The S and P 500 hundred average was that inflation adjusted as well.
Chris Miles
01:11:17
No, non inflation adjusted. That is the true actual yield of the S and P 500. So when people tell you 10 or 12%, that's bogus, it's bull. It. It's never been the way. And I was taught that as a financial advisor, and yet I found out that wasn't the case.
Bill Fairman
01:11:34
Well, well, I know I've had conversations with others as well about 401ks and we, and we had a conversation of recently and anecdotal speaking, I don't know anyone that has made, and this will, and this will do another the week week, but anyone who has made more on their 401k, they than what they've and what their employer has, lawyer has con over say a 20 year period. And again, it's anecdotally, but the, really the gains I see to the 401k 401ks attritions and the, the free, free money you get lawyer. Yes. Not really from the market,
Jonathan Davis
01:12:13
It's it boils down to, to a little better than bank saving account.
Chris Miles
01:12:19
It's true. I mean, even if you, I mean, even the 20 year average of the market, it's even worse than that. It's, it's less than 7% in the S and P but you know, you're right, because 401ks the average fee, I mean, fees will vary in 401k. Some of the times, the larger corporations, if you have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of employees, sometimes they'll be between a half to 1% of a fee. Right. Which is good. But there are some 401ks out there that I've seen that are like between one and 2% a year that you're being charged, whether you make money or not, some are even over 2%. Right? So think about this. Even if you happen to get close to the S and P 500 returns, most likely because you have variety of mutual funds or you're in the, you know, whatever target age fund that you're in.
Chris Miles
01:13:03
You're lucky to pull off 7%. But if you have a 1% fee coming outta your 401k, that means you only netting a 6% return. And of course you throw an inflation in there, which we all know is a lot higher than two or 3%. We're looking more like five to 7% minimum average. Right. You're you're right. Like you're maybe just keeping up with inflation inflation. Funny enough. It's it's I for, I didn't realize we'd be talking about 401ks cuz the argument everybody always talks about is the match, right? Like, yeah, but I get the match. Now, if you're your own employer, like you're a dentist or something like that, the match is really ridiculous because you pay your own match. You really don't get anything. Right. There's no real argument for that. In fact, you'd be better off just buying your own mutual funds outside of a 401k plan because it costs you more money than just investing yourself.
Chris Miles
01:13:50
Yeah. But for those that have, that are employees, they'll say, yeah, but I get this a hundred percent or 50% match on my money for every 6% I put in, I get 3% in the rare few cases you might put in six and get six. And that's usually the best I ever see. So funny enough, I was actually just getting ready to record my own podcast to release about three weeks from now. So you guys are gonna get the sneak peek, but I ran those numbers because what people always say is, let's just say you get, you get that a hundred percent match. They'll say, but guys, this is a hundred percent rate of return. You can't beat that. That's free money. It's brainless and you're right. It is brainless. If you just think it's free money and you think it's a hundred percent return because you put in a hundred percent compounded return in a calculator, you can go to calculator.net and do this, go put in a savings.
Chris Miles
01:14:39
You know, interest bearing calculator put in a hundred percent a year putting in say 6,000 a year. So you're putting in 6,000, get a hundred percent return. You'll find out you're gonna be richer than, than buffet or Bezos in the next 30 years, I can promise you at 6,000 a year, you will never be a billionaire multi billionaire. But that hundred percent return because it keeps doubling every year makes it look like it. What you're actually getting is a total, a hundred percent return. Whether you invest for one year or 40 years, you only double your money with the match. And so you run the numbers like you're putting in. Let's see. Actually I think I ran those numbers. Let's see. I put in yeah, 6,000. So I was doing one where I was putting in 6,000 a year, making six and a half percent.
Chris Miles
01:15:22
I was being pretty, pretty generous for people that believe they get a higher return on their 401ks, six and a half percent for 30 years, you will have 1.1 million when you get the match. But the funny thing is, if you only put in the 6,000, not get the match, you have 550,000. So you have exactly half the money. So you only double it. And with the whole rule of 72, right that 72 says for every 72 years, whatever the interest rate is, it doubles. Well, if you save for 40 years, that means it really only adds a few percent return to that six and a half. In this case, when I ran it, because it was that full hundred percent return, it got you from a six and a half percent return to a 10% return. So it actually gave you a three and a half percent over 30 years, the shorter of the term, the better.
Chris Miles
01:16:08
But you and I, we all know we, we could do way better in the alternative space. And it's not about accumulating that money cuz even if you got the same and I even showed earning 10%, for example, in alternative investments, you would have the exact same number as a 401k. If you only put 6,000 a year, you wouldn't have the match, but you would still match what they made. You'd have about 1.1 million. Here's the difference when you're in mutual funds, right? Obviously you're not earning those aggressive returns. When you hit retirement, when you hit retirement, you gotta start taking those conservative returns. So even wall street journal last October said, don't believe in the 4% rule anymore. That's too much money. You will run out of money with people living longer. You should only pull out 3% a year. So if you have 1.1 million, that means you're actually only pulling out $33,000 a year, where if you're earning 10% on 1.1 million, you're pulling out $110,000 a year.
Chris Miles
01:17:06
Because if you're in alternative investments, just like you guys have with your fund, you got regular cash flow coming in, paying, you know that that's gonna pay way more than 3%, right? You're gonna pay more than that. And it's not even touching the principles where most people are pulling out 3% and they could very well be touching the principle depending on what's going on in the markets, pulling money out, hoping not to run outta money. By the time they die. It's a very different mentality that, you know, I didn't even understand as a financial advisor cuz I was in that accumulation mindset. But when I got on that cashflow mindset totally different.
Jonathan Davis
01:17:38
Yeah. I mean, people are taught to, you know, like the biggest lie of, you know, of the finances put money in your savings, accountings account, like put all your money in the savings account. Please have some, but you know, like save it, just save it just then with the 401k, just, just put it there. And it's there. And it's like accumulation of money is, you know, if, if even the capitalist society with, with, with inflation, it's worthless.
Chris Miles
01:18:02
Yeah. Put
Jonathan Davis
01:18:03
It there. Like you can, you can put it into an asset, has a tax depreciate, appreciation it, cash flow and builds and builds. It's like, like people just don't know that you, you, you can lower your taxes CR well through appreciable appreciation that you can too later. And while having cash flow along the way,
Chris Miles
01:18:27
Like that's right.
Jonathan Davis
01:18:28
Yeah. 401k. Can't K can't do that. I mean, savings account can't do that.
Bill Fairman
01:18:32
And the average person have the, the network in place to buy these properties and do this stuff on their own. So that's why there's different, different funds that you can get into and still achieve the same benefit. Because now you're an owner in a fund that owns properties and then yep. Or that's right. Lends me own property, that type of thing. So you're still getting all those the upside side. And then the, the time
Jonathan Davis
01:19:00
Let's Chris, you wanna wanna take that?
Chris Miles
01:19:03
Let's see, can you take the match and move the money outta the 401k into another retirement vehicle? I suppose maybe some want you to keep the money then there until you leave the company. Good question. Cuz the truth is of the 401k. If you're, if it's with a current employer, you can't get it out, right? Like it's locked up in prison. I actually tell the people that, that most of the time, what you're taught traditionally with money is to keep your money in prison, lock it up in home equity. Don't take it out, pay off that house. Right? Lock it up in your 401k, which you can't get to unless you get fired or quit. Don't recommend either of those necessarily. Right. I mean, everything's just locked up, you know, and, and that's what the banks and the finance institutions want you to do. Cause they want the money in their possession, not yours. Right. So, so yeah, with the 401k, can you move it? Yeah. When you leave the company, you know, if you change jobs or anything like that, then yes, you can roll over to a self-directed IRA. And now you've got a lot better options than the alternative space you can invest into, which definitely are great. And of course you guys just advertise the quest expo, which is a place you can roll your money over for that, you know, IRA, you know, self-directed IRA.
Bill Fairman
02:20:10
Well there, well, there are some plan ed admins that will allow you to take a portion out and self and self-direct, that's very rare. And a lot of time, a lot of times direct is not really, really self-direct there, here, here's a basket of funds that you can choose your money and money into and that's not taking it out the market.
Chris Miles
02:20:30
Yep. That's true. Yeah. If you're, if you're, if you're over the age of 59 and a half, you know, so you don't have that 10% withdrawal, you know, penalty that you have. There are some rare situations. You can ask your HR manager. If you work for an employer and ask them, you know, can I take, what's called inservice distributions. So if you ask about inservice distributions, that means you can actually pull the money out of your 401k while you're still working there. And if you're the employer and you own the 401k, there's lots of things you do to either dismantle the plan and then roll it over. Or you can do other things with it too. I know I'm actually worth the dentist that both of us know that he's saying, I don't wanna get rid of this plan. Now this 401k plan's useless. None of my employees care.
Chris Miles
02:21:13
I even gave him the idea. I said, well, what's your match 3%. Like, why don't you just tell our employees effective today? I'm giving you all 3% raise you do it, the money, whatever you want, pay off your credit cards, you know, go blow it in Vegas. What, whatever you wanna do, you know, save it in your own retirement plan. That's gonna be less in fees than get this 401k plan, do something else. Or, you know, do a once in a year trip with the, with the couples, like, you know, I had no one dentist that actually took that 401k plan, got rid of it and said, you know what, instead, we're just gonna do, go do carnival cruise lines over every labor day weekend. And we're gonna get drunk off our butts for a few days and then come back to work. Hopefully not as hungover, but you know, just do that. And the crazy thing is like, they actually have the best recruiting ever. They never have to fill a position because once they know there's a position open, all the employees are going out saying you gotta work for this company. It's so awesome. Once a year we go into this cruise, we get drunk off our butts. It's great. You know, so there's a lot of options you can do besides 401ks.
Bill Fairman
02:22:14
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm we're pretty sure that that's not, that's not on their dental website.
Chris Miles
02:22:19
Yeah, that's right.
Bill Fairman
02:22:20
There. Won't be anybody anybody's skid for that Tuesday morning.
Chris Miles
02:22:24
Exactly.
Bill Fairman
02:22:28
Talk to us about how you are instructing directing debt on cash flow through through products.
Chris Miles
02:22:39
Yeah. We're I, I kind of give people the three key pieces of advice is get lean, get liquid, get out, right. Get lean. Just meaning, like let's get really responsible, understand how much money's coming in, how much is going out, tracking your money. I think using tools like mint, you know, mint.com or the there's the app mint that you can use as well. Great tool to use, to be able to just track your money, see what's going on. I mean, really get clear on that because the more you can put away, the better, especially the more you can put away outside of things like 401ks or outside of trying to pay off your house aggressively early, things like that. If you can get that money in your possession and in your power, now you have options to be able to use that money. So that's one is get lean and get lean means don't necessarily be cheap.
Chris Miles
02:23:24
Don't live on rice beans. I don't mean that. I don't mean even giving up, giving up that latte. Like other people will give you advice for, it just means be a Y steward of the blessings you've been given and prioritize it. Two, get, get liquid. Right? That means it's kind of the same thing I said is let's get it into savings. A simple place could be savings account. I even teach a strategy called infinite banking where you can actually get a tax free savings account that will actually allow you to double dip on your returns when you invest with it. But basically get liquid, get that money liquid and available and then get out means where's their money trapped, right. Is it trapped in IRAs like old 401ks or something like that or Roth IRAs? Is it trapped in home equity? Can we get that money out of those places and then deploy it into alternative investments?
Chris Miles
02:24:10
And, and there are so many that you can do. I mean, obviously you can do lending of sorts, right. Or funds, you know, things like that, where like, like bill had just mentioned, you know, going in putting that money in a place where they're managing it, they're creating the returns. You create a real true passive income from that. Right. And it's awesome. And you can get, you know, high single digit or even double digit returns potentially on those kind of things. There's things like if you don't wanna buy and be the property manager, because everybody wonders about rentals, they're like, yeah, but I don't wanna be the property manager. Well then don't, you know, get a turnkey rental property where somebody else manages that for you. Again, you buy it and collect the checks. Same thing there. I was actually running numbers on that. Comparing that to the 401k, just with some of my properties.
Chris Miles
02:24:53
It, the last three years I was comparing it with the stock market from 2019, till 2022, compared to when I bought a property in North Carolina. Right. And your guys's neck of the woods. Right. And funny enough, my total return on that North Carolina property there in Fayetteville was actually a 200. Oh, wrong one here. There we go. It was with now without appreciation, it was a 60% like six, 0% ROI without any appreciation that was just paying down. My, having my renters pay down my mortgage, a few thousand bucks and earning all the cash flow with appreciation, which I definitely won't deny. It made it a 218% ROI. If I had that same $27,000 down payment that I put in the S and P 500, I would've had a 42% ROI. So I went, I basically have like, you know, over 80,000 bucks of the property where I would've had about $38,000 in the stock market, right. From 27 to 38. So I mean, hard to beat that. I mean, I was already beating the stock market without any appreciation, and that was just icing on the cake. Right. So, so I look at that
Bill Fairman
02:25:58
For time, you're gonna end up with a free and clear property, clear property that mortgage will be paid down and then you're getting me more cash flow. And that property is gonna continue to go India to go up in value for going to get cash flow time. That is going to increase. Rent are going to increase and, and their banks are gonna increase.
Chris Miles
02:26:19
That's that's a good point because it, yeah, because the other thing I'm doing too, that 27,000, what's paying me about 300 bucks a month, the beginning, but now it's getting up to about 400 bucks a month of net profit that I'm making. And I think they're even talking about raising it again, because rents jumped up like 15% or 20% in that market or last year. So they're saying just to keep up with market rents, you know, maybe we'll go in, in between, you know, maybe we won't quite quite go as high as market rent, but we can still go pretty low. And for this long term rental, that's never moved for the last three years. So there's yeah, you're right. And that's all tax free where if I'm in the stock market, I get the full on biggest tax that could possibly get, especially if it's in a 401k or an IRA where it's ordinary income tax, the worst tax bracket you can be in, you know, here I haven't paid taxes on this money.
Chris Miles
02:27:06
Yeah. Because I've been depreciating the property. Right. And all those profits have been getting written off. So, so it's awesome. You know, there's other things like syndications, you can invest, pull your money together, kinda like funds. You can pull your money into certain specific deals. Whether it be like self storage, it could be apartment buildings could be commercial buildings. It could be oil and gas. I mean, there's so many things there in last year, I even bought raw land. You know, where I did a, a business partnership with someone who's buying and selling raw land for me, I'm financing it, but they're doing that. And I'm making great cash while on that right now, too. So there's, there's just so many more options that when you take that, when you take that red pill, right. That matrix red pill, you take it, you realize there there's so many more options. And then this tiny little wall street, world of mutual funds and bonds and things like that, it's just, you really realize you're just eating really, really bad, you know, British food, you know, it's like, like British quiz meetings, like, wow, I got Shepherd's pie, but there's no flavor here. It's kind of like that wall street. It's like, this is all you're giving you. Gimme mutual funds, stocks, bonds, annuities.
Bill Fairman
02:28:12
That's it. You tell, I tell my wife that you're dis Shepherd's pie. Anyway. Thank you so much, by the way, for joining us, us, you have a podcast. It's those podcast as well.
Chris Miles
02:28:31
I do. I have the money ripples podcast that I do have two episodes a week come out and yeah, it's a great show there. Plus even our YouTube channel, the money ripples channel, we've got videos coming out every day. So lots of good stuff. You could click out there. Jeff,
Bill Fairman
02:28:43
Anything you wanted to ask?
Jonathan Davis
02:28:44
I was gonna tell him, thank you for taking the lead on, on. Yeah. Since our it's our microphone connection. We're not sure what it is is causing disturbing the force
Bill Fairman
02:28:54
Disturb force.
Chris Miles
02:28:56
Not at all. I love it. Appreciate you guys having me on.
Bill Fairman
02:29:00
Thank you so much, Chris.
Jonathan Davis
02:29:02
Wanna, I'm sorry. You wanna ask, you know, everyone out there, out there anecdotally about collectively, we still haven't talked to somebody, talked to somebody who has exited a 401k or like vehicle in retire in retirement with, or then their contributions shins from the employer. The question question is, is there, is there someone, is there someone out there that different ex experience than that we would love to know if, if you have received more than your contributions when you exit that retirement vehicle.
Bill Fairman
02:29:35
Yeah. And we'll give them, yeah. We'll your answers. Just put it over there in the com comments, either in the live or in the live show or we'll continue to check those and then we will, we'll give the, the answers next week again. Thank you again again, Chris so much joining us. We really, really appreciate it. You always do a wonderful job. I'm trying to exit to my exit cam camera. So I'll see you shortly, shortly. So fo thank you so much much for, for joining the real estate investor show show. We are line capital management. We are, we are a private lender in the real estate space space, real estate professionals. If you would like us to take a look at one of your project X, please go to Carol mini.com and click on the, on the apply now. But if you are a passive investment investor, look at returns, click click on the accreditor tab. Don't forget the like light share drive, hit the bell. And then don't forget about Wednesdays with Wendy. We will see, we will see you guys next week. Better audio, take care.